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Work experience can trump more schooling

ROMA LUCIW

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 2:13 PM EST 07/11/07

Statscan study finds that some university grads earn less than high-school dropouts, in part because the grads lack work experience ...Read the full article

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  1. Steve *** from United States writes: Ok, here are some excuses companies and in some cases government use not to hire you so that they can get their relatives hire. That is if you actually get a response or interview;

    -No degree and lots of experience, the answer is “no”

    -Have a degree and no or little experience, the answer is “no”

    -Have a degree and experience, the answer is “we will contact you” or “over qualified”

    -Have a degree and experience, the answer is you don’t have “Canadian experience”

    How do you expect Canadian economy to be competitive in a global economy?
  2. Erik Richards from Winnipeg, MB, writes: I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this article. Is it to tell people in universities that they're wasting their time? Is it to tell high school kids that dropping out is an acceptable practice?

    Of course some high school dropouts will make more money than university graduates. Sometimes it's a fluke but most often I suspect it's a short term aberration. Let's check when the individuals are in their 30s and see how many high school dropouts are making more than those with degrees.
  3. Solo Vox from Montreal, Canada writes: This is officially the most retarded story the globe and spew has ever put up.

    1) poll done in Dec, 2003!

    2) Not surprisingly, people who had attained a college or university degree earned more than the median, while those who dropped out of high school or had not completed a post-secondary program earned less than the median.

    3)However, the poll found that at least some university grads were bringing home smaller paycheques than high school dropouts of their age.

    Follow this same group of people for the next 25 years and tell me how they are doing then.
  4. Stan L from Canada writes: I agree dumbest story....

    What is the conclusion then, not ALL people with university degrees but MOST are getting paid more than dropouts.....duh?

    I think they should take this story back...it is not quite baked yet.
  5. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: "However, the poll found that at least some university grads were bringing home smaller paycheques than high school dropouts of their age."

    So, how many is "some"? Even if you dropped out of school, you may get lucky. If it's something like 0.5% of dropouts earn more than people with degrees, I don't think that's very newsworthy. It's just a statistical aberration, nothing more.
  6. Yakko Warner from Water Tower, Canada writes: The article is looking at two far ends of the spectrum and not giving enough emphasis on the middle. I am neither a univ. graduate nor a dropout but I have done two years of trade school. From there I have gained 10 years of on-the-job experience and lots of employer-sponsored training that was focused on a niche aspect of industry. Because of the experience and qualifications I have gained on the job, I now command a salary higher than most univ. graduates of my age and get at least monthly calls from head hunters - without a university degree. I can't believe I would have any of this if I were a high school dropout.
    I now hire people for my department and a candidate having a degree or not is not as important as what they can bring to the team as a whole package and how they would fit in socially. That being said, I would not consider an applicant who dropped out of high school and came with 15 years experience alone - unless I was trying to fill a non-skilled position which also means that applicant would not make anywhere near what a university graduate would make.
  7. Bruce Batchelor from Canada writes: In a post-secondary system requiring at least 3.5 GPA for university admission, the researcher finds that kids with higher grades tend to go to university and that they go there right after high school! WOW! It must be horrible to get a degree in statistics and be forced to swab the decks with this intellectual swill!
  8. Captain William Pike from Kitchener, Canada writes: Bravo Steve ***!!! That about sums it up. Maybe people should start getting lawyers involved and start scaring these companies into treating people equally. When I hear "Equal Opportunity" I have to laugh. After getting out of university it was no experience, after getting experience it was "no certain degree". The government seems to be one of the worst around plus they have almost criminal benefits to their "family" of employees. It's insane!!! Also another big beef I have it that not only is this being said that drop-outs sometimes make more than university grads but think of the huge interest university grads (that get loans) have to pay back along with the principal. The Canadian government seems to be encouraging a welfare state. A guy gets out of highschool or drops out, gets a summer job, gets EI, and then does a course paid for in full by the feds. Another guy decides to go to university but needs a loan, graduates from university, responsibly gets a full time job, and starts paying back the student loan he got with 8.5% interest (with no incentives as the other guy gets from government when he gets a job long enough to get EI and a course paid in full). What a wonderful country!
  9. Patrick Star from Toronto, Canada writes: “Marks matter,&8221; the Statscan analysts wrote. &8220;Youth with very low marks in high school were much more likely than those with average to high marks to drop out and not return. Very high marks predicted that the teen would go directly to a postsecondary program after high school rather than delaying.&8221;

    Really?! I'll bet that the high school drop outs make more than this guy.
  10. Greg Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Reading comments on the Globe's site tends to dissapoint, especially when it so frequently reminds one that the intelligence of the paper's content far exceeds that of certain vocal readers. The results of this StatsCan survey are not surprising on the whole. It may be subtle, sure, but there is value in knowing that there overlap between the incomes of those who completed post-secondary education and those who failed to complete secondary education. Several commenters complain about the hum-drum nature of these survey results, but instead of questioning the news value of reporting on the survey, they attack the value of the survey itself. For example, Bruce: "It must be horrible to get a degree in statistics and be forced to swab the decks with this intellectual swill!" In social science, as in other sciences, results that confirm our expectations are as valuable as those that frustrate expectations by turning up surprising results. The factors that contribute to behaviours like dropping out of high school, for example, are important to establish empirically. If you think the Globe needn't report on such studies, that's fine, but your inability to stomach the existence of unexciting but essential research is one -- but certainly not the only -- way in which you differ from the diligent folks at StatsCan. Others take issue with the age of the data. For example, Solo Vox: "This is officially the most retarded story the globe and spew has ever put up... poll done in Dec, 2003!" StatsCan collects data in big gulps all at once using omnibus telephone surveys, after which analysts use that data to produce reports on various topics. Some times there is an appreciable gap between data collection and publication of a particular analysis. Guess what? That's how the statistics biz works. Very few social statistics are available on an 'up to the minute' basis, and even if they were there are a limited number of analysts on the government payroll.
  11. Eric S from Waterloo, Canada writes: It seems the whoever is in charge of the web version of this paper enjoys putting up Statscan studies with very little relevance.

    I have seen a few dumb articles similar to this posted before.

    There's clearly a distribution of income for those without high school diplomas just as there is a distribution for those with a university degree. It is statistically obvious that these two distributions would cross at some point - otherwise, we would not have a Bill Gates. Thanks for publishing the obvious Globe (although I did enjoy the front page article of the print addition this morning - scary stuff!)
  12. Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: Was this survey of people who studied for jobs within a specific, or are these general BA's not worth the proverbial paper they are written on. I am willing to guess its' the latter.
  13. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: This article is meaningless. Some university grads earn less than high-school dropouts? This is as meaningful and informative as saying some Asian people are taller than Westerners.
  14. Not right or left from Canada writes: "Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: Was this survey of people who studied for jobs within a specific, or are these general BA's not worth the proverbial paper they are written on. I am willing to guess its' the latter."

    You are more than likely correct. I know some people who have BA's and are doing th same job as someone who never graduated from high school.
  15. JDF Canada from Calgary, Canada writes: Eric S from Waterloo, Canada writes: It seems the whoever is in charge of the web version of this paper enjoys putting up Statscan studies with very little relevance...

    I agree. It seems quite obvious that new grad salaries are going to lag those who have spent the prior 4 years working. I didn't begin university until I was 22, and, upon graduation, earned less than I did at my full time job before I started university....but that changed very quickly throughout my twenties, and now I can safely say that I would not be earning anywhere near what I am now.....one has to take a long term view of such things, and not dwell on the exceptions who comprise about 1/100th of 1% of the general population.
  16. Pepper Gee from Canada writes: Yakko Warner - good for you for pointing out that there is more out there than university - there are trade schools, community colleges etc... however it is a shame that you say that you would not even consider a high school drop out with 15 years experience unless it was for a non-skilled position. What if the 15 years was to learn a skill that fit into your company? I don't think that's fair. People have all sorts of reasons for who they become and to be summarily dismissed because they didn't finish high school is simply not on if they have solid experience.
  17. Jake The Snake from Canada writes: This article means nothing until you consider what these people actually do and you track their careers over a 20-30 year span. a 5-10 year span is nothing but a snapshot in time that doesn't reflect the whole picture.

    I know a few people who are dumb as bricks who made a fortune in sales, real estate, cars etc. Most of us have ceilings on what we can earn in our current jobs it's called a salary. Unless you majored in businesss or law or something simliar or have a unique high demand talent there is always more than likely going to be a limit to what you can make that will not go beyond what would be considered middle or upper middle class.
  18. Michael Borrelli from Hamilton, Canada writes: I agree with Greg above about the quality of some of these comments...although some of them sort of have a point.

    We're talking about two distributions of samples of Canadians the same age, with the only difference being post-secondary attendance. The chances of those two samples NOT overlapping is almost nil, so the article was sort of deficient by not quantifying that overlap. I mean, the article could have just as easily said "The vast majority of post secondary grads make more than their highschool dropout peers."

    It would have been helpful for the Globe to have provided some clarifying statement such as "The top 3% of highschool drop outs make more than the bottom 7% of university graduates."

    Even then, that's sort of a funny statement since we don't know how skewed either of those distributions are.
  19. Greg Calgary from Canada writes: Work experience can trump more schooling and winning the 6/49 jack pot trumps everything.
    What's your point ?
  20. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Nothing new here. Strange to say it's news.
    Next time a SALESMAN says "Hello" say "Goodbye".
  21. Yakko Warner from Water Tower, Canada writes: Pepper Gee - point noted. To be honest, I have never had a hgh school dropout ever apply for a skilled or technical position. However, if I were to meet a kid who was exceptionally brilliant, a genius if you will, with exceptionally innovative knowledge that would be an asset to my company, then I would pressure management to create a position for this person, even if this person never saw the inside of a classroom in his/her life. I believe such people exist but it would be a one-in-a-million opportunity for an employer to find and appreciate such talent.
    Slightly unrelated but one more thing I want to add as far as the employment market is concerned - the saying: "it's not what you know, it's who you know", holds a lot of truth everywhere and is a major factor in many corporations' hiring practices.
  22. Greg Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Readers interested in the study itself can find it at the following URL:

    http://www.statcan.ca/bsolc/english/bsolc?catno=81-595-MIE2007054
  23. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: So what you are saying is reality might be more important than fiction? Can you tell that to Stephen Harper and his people please.
  24. Sue W from Canada writes: The poll was taken in Dec 2003, and it takes 4 years to complete?
  25. My eyes are open, Are yours? from Canada writes: What I'd like to see is 'some liberal arts and humanities grads are earning more than engineering and computer science grads'. Oh, and the study should control for whether you went to UCC and have a parent who's a CEO of a multinational.

    When that article is published, it'll be news.
  26. My eyes are open, Are yours? from Canada writes: And where can I get a job doing these types of surveys? Seems to be no end of money available to do them.

    Here are some topics:

    Students with poor marks fare poorly in the job market, T/F? E.g. Einstein did poorly in school.

    Students who start businesses in high school become millionaires by the time they're 30 - statistically likely?

    Given the same aptitude, intelligence, background, gender, if one highschool grad goes to university, and another takes the same money and spends it networking and taking influential people to lunch (trading up from one lunch partner to the next) will the 'luncher' get a better job at the end of 4 years?

    What is the differential between post-secondary diciplines - Trade, diploma, BA, BSc, BASc? How do they fare 20 years on?
  27. Darren X from Toronto, Canada writes: I'd be a LOT more interested to see a comparison of trade school vs university.

    There are simply too many university grads out there IMHO... many of the people I went to university with were wasting their time, and are now very well educated clerks.
  28. Greg Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Sue W: No, it didn't take 4 years to complete this report. The data was collected in 2003. The analysts that produced this particular report used that data, 4 years later, to produce this report. Numerous reports are derived from each of the various surveys that StatsCan conducts.
  29. Susie Q from Canada writes: But, of course! A degree does not necessarily make a person smarter than the average "drop-out" or better suited for the work world. Any monkey can get a degree these days, if they have the cash and the wherewithal to drag their arse to class. I couldn't manage either, but hey, I still make a fine salary...
  30. Lauren M from Vancouver, Canada writes: ^If we control for degree-type, it still won't explain everything. There is a big difference between someone with an Honours BA in Economics or Philosophy and someone with a C average in "cultural studies". I'm pretty sure its the latter who are earning less than high school dropouts.

    The survey mentioned in the article is telling us nothing new - it's just more evidence to support Human Capital Theory (from labour economics). Going to university incurrs both the direct cost of paying for university and the indirect cost of having less work experience. Both matter... go figure.
  31. Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: Darren X from Toronto is correct. There are far too many grads from our esteemed degree mills with their BA's in Political Science and other such nonsense who are working at Starbucks for minimum wage and dragging down the university grad stats.

    Where I live in Kitchener there was a recently a job ad for qualified pipe welders where the starting salary was $37.11/hr, yet the local college still has trouble filling all of their seats in their welding apprenticeship program? What gives? Yet the Ontario government and large corporations are pouring millions of dollars into the local universities to churn out more and more of these useless BA grads.

    This country is doomed unless we turn this around. I think that the posters above are correct; let StatsCan do some analysis on the performance and salaries of our skilled trades verses some of these university programs.
  32. Glen Foley from Canada writes: Susie Q writes: "Any monkey can get a degree these days, if they have the cash and the wherewithal to drag their arse to class."

    Prove it. Show us how easy it is to complete an engineering degree just by paying tuition and showing up to class.
  33. Susie Q from Canada writes: Oh Glen, did I say "engineering" degree?
  34. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: My Eyes: "What I'd like to see is 'some liberal arts and humanities grads are earning more than engineering and computer science grads'. " My Eyes, I'm quite sure that a study could easily find that SOME Xs earn more/eat more/live longer/whatever else than SOME Ys re: just about anything! That being said, I happen to be one of those liberal arts/humanities types that earns more than the professional engineers and lawyers who report to me, both for the obvious reason that I carry managment responsibilities that they do not, but also because while they may be more highly educated than I am, they do have considerably less practical work experience. And these are not people of my own age group with just a little less work experience, but people of my age group with a LOT less work experience. In fact, there seems to be this funny subset of workers coming into the workplace now - now that there are jobs aplenty - people who I think have somehow succeeded in substituting school for work, and who wouldn't necessarily be an employer's first choice in a tighter job market. I'm not knocking them - in fact, if I could afford to, I think I'd prefer to be a permanent student myself. But this particular subset, despite their superior educations and Dean's list at Osgoode Hall status, I have my doubts that they will ever jump far ahead of the less remarkable worker bees like me.
  35. Steve *** from United States writes: Coming back to my point: “IT IS NOT WHAT YOU KNOW OR HAVE, IT IS WHO YOU KNOW” it has always been like that and it will always be. you dont need any talents that way. as long as you leave work without setting the building on fire your cousin manager will hire you. LOL
  36. Glen Foley from Canada writes: Suzie Q. Please elaborate for us then.

    What degrees were you talking about when you said "a degree"?

    How are we to know from your comments which degrees you were talking about?
  37. Susie Q from Canada writes: Oh come on, haven't you ever heard of general arts and sciences? Or are you just trying to pick a fight with me because you're bored? (Oh wait, I must be answering you because I'm bored. I'll stop now...)
  38. Exorcist Of Stupidity from Waterloo, Canada writes: Is this supposed to surprise me?

    This is common sense,
  39. Greg Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: My degree in Political Science didn't get me a lucrative job. I literally am one of the "very well educated clerks" mentioned above, with both a BA and a college diploma (completed in that order), working outside my field (libraries) while trying to break into it. But then again, I didn't go to university in order to get a lucrative job; rather, I went there to *learn* about the world in order to better understand it. And now, I do. If I only wanted to memorize techniques in order to complete specific tasks, I could have gone straight to college. As for the idea that there are 'too many' BAs who are 'useless' -- and that government policy shouldn't encourage young adults (or others) to attend university -- consider that students cannot progress to advanced or professional degrees without fist clearing the undergraduate hurdle. If you believe that we require more people with advanced degrees in the workforce in order to increase productivity and succeed in a globalized knowledge economy, then it follows that we must encourage students who seem capable of advanced learning to at least attempt university and see how things unfold. If I had gone straight to college rather than heading there after university, I might be in the same quasi-skilled clerk job at a slightly higher salary but I would have a considerably narrower field of options in the short- and medium-term (i.e. grad school). And, I must say, my college colleagues who hadn't gone to university tended to show a narrower perspective on the word. If employers fail to recognize and reward the difference, it's their loss... and mine, too, actually, but I suppose there's no use complaining.
  40. Jay Bird from Toronto, Canada writes: Greg Smith...Thanks for providing meaningful balanced comments. I'm in agreement.

    Steve from the US you are also correct in it is who you know along with how you build your network. Example 1...a friend never finished high school and work for an equipment manufacturer fixing copiers. Married into a very wealthy family, got into the family business and is now very wealthy. Example 2...friend in a wealthy family, finished high school, went to university for four years, never graduated (3 credits total), bounced around from job to job, now has own business in TO doing well and still quite wealthy.

    The flipside is having university grads working on the assembly lines at car manufacturers and there are more of them that one would think.
  41. Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: Greg Smith: I too have a university degree (B.A.Sc.), a 3-yr College diploma, and a Inter-Provincial Journeyman's trade qualification (completed in that order).

    And I repeat...90% of the people graduating for our degree mills (oops, universities) with a B.A. in (insert useless title here), are complete morons who expect these huge salaries, but have absolutely no idea why they won't get them, despite all of their education.

    As an industrial manager I have found that it is our technical and skilled trade staff that really make our business run. The receptionist with a BA is a nice young women...but I can find thousands more where she came from. If we lose any more of our technologists or skilled trades staff to the Alberta boom we will be out of business however!
  42. Blake Johnston from Vancouver, Canada writes: What a pointless piece.
  43. Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: I think that the posters above are correct; let StatsCan do some analysis on the performance and salaries of our skilled trades verses some of these university programs.

    I believe that StatsCan is afraid of what they might find if they did such a study! In turn, so are the Universities. Many of us had Arts degrees shoved at us during the 70's and 80's because they were the ticket to a better life. We in turn passed that overrated BS straight on to our kids.

    There is nothing wrong with learning and practising a skilled trade. If I had to do it over, that's where I would be headed, rather than wasting time in a General Arts or Humanities program. It is usually shorter in length, is offered co-op, and is often cheaper all around. As to income, plumbers and welders make a lot more than file clerks, and have a better time finding a paying job when times get rough.

  44. Patrick Star from Toronto, Canada writes: When it's all said and done, a university degree won't guarantee anyone a certain amount of income, although it can open up more opportunities to make more further down the line. It all depends on the person and the line of work. For example, you can ask the many successful business owners what their eduaction level is and you will get a variety of answers.

    I had this conversation with friends during grade 12 when some of us were applying to university and others were going to college or joining the workforce. It was agreed that nothing is guaranteed and that any one of us could be making more than the other despite the whichever path we chose. And now, seven years later, we can see that were right. Our incomes are widely varied and not a reflection of our education levels.

    And Greg Smith is right. Obtaining a University degree is not always for the sole purpose of making big bucks, nor is it as easy as people without a degree say it is. You go to University to become educated and learn to think on a higher level. Not making as much as a person without a degree after graduating doesn't make it any less of an accomplishment.
  45. Dewey Dell Bundren from Medicine Deer, Canada writes: Yes, Carbon Blob, Sector 7G is an excellent source of skilled labour for Alberta.
  46. Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: "I believe that StatsCan is afraid of what they might find if they did such a study!"

    The universities DO fear such data collection and publication. In Ontario the government mandates that the colleges collect and publicize this type of data from every post-secondary program (they call it their Key Performance Indicators or KPI and is available on the government's website... MTCU). The universities however have no such requirement and have vigourusly resisted a push to collect it.

    I also wonder why the G&M, who recently did their exhaustive scientific study and analysis of the Canadian universities :-), didn't ask these kinds of questions so that parents and young people could go into the academic meat grinder with their eyes wide open.
  47. Sam Snead from Canada writes: This is a good example of people plugging numbers into a stats package and believing what comes out is meaningful.
  48. Jim Smith from Canada writes: The university has done an excellent job marketing themselves, and how a degree is such a 'status symbol'.

    Reality is that parents encouraged (forced?) their kids to head towards a university education, fearful of what neighbours and family might think if heaven forbid their child ended up picking up a trade.

    Trades are also set up to provide more hands-on work experience to their students, as opposed to a degree. I remember studying for my industrial engineering degree while taking fluid mechanics and thermodynamics courses, and not being able to touch the university equipment.

    As a result, the demand for trades has grown tremendously. The trades also allow for many folks to start their own businesses, write off a multitude of things, and make more than their buddies from university.

    Who would have thought that trades allow for a lot of entreprenurialism.
    More than the university grad that sits in a cubicle most of their life.
  49. Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: Jim Smith is correct. Some of Canada's best companies were started and managed by tradesman (e.g., Magna, ATS, Husky Injection, etc.). Of course many small businesses are run by tradesmen/entrepreneurs (there is a plumber here for example called "Joe Blow PhD" (PhD = plumbing, heating, & drains)).

    Other firms such as RIM were started by university dropouts (Mike Lazaridis never completed his degree at UofW).

    It has been said that universities are places where A students prepare B students to work for C students (tradesman?)...how true.
  50. Mark P from Calgary, Canada writes: No wonder productivity is lagging and is in a crisis in Canada -- university graduates, people who made significant investments in education are being underpaid, and are not receiving a fair return on investment. Especially in the sciences and in engineering.

    What incentive, other than a meagre paycheque, is there for Canada's university-educated best and brightest to apply their talents? How many bright innovators and future business owners and entrepreneurs might we be losing in the high tech sector because our graduates don't earn enough for their first 10 years of employment to do much more than pay back their student loans and maybe afford a downpayment?
  51. Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: Mark P from Calgary, Canada writes: No wonder productivity is lagging and is in a crisis in Canada...

    Of course...when 50% of the population goes off to party for 4-6 years at university on the public dime (and draining their parents resources), instead of contributing in a real way to the economy, it can be a real drag on our productivity.

    And who says that it takes a university education to make real contributions to productivity? That certainly hasn't been my industrial experience...not by a long-shot. Most of my firm's technological improvements have been designed and managed by college educated technologists and implemented by skilled trades. (The only contribution by a university grad is our pain-in-the-butt accountant who generally couldn't find his own arse with both hands.)
  52. Bill Needle from Canada writes: Carbon Blob from Sector 7G, Canada writes: The only contribution by a university grad is our pain-in-the-butt accountant who generally couldn't find his own arse with both hands.

    Methinks you exaggerate Carbon - all accountants are required to learn to spread their cheeks for their boss. Hard to do that when you can't find yer a$$.
  53. Bill Needle from Canada writes: All universities are good at convincing young people that they need a degree to be successful. That is their con. In reality they are just protecting their overpaid, underworked jobs.

    In reality you do not need a degree for entrepreneurial success in fact it is probably a severe hindrance.

    "Unfortunately I have a degree" - John Cleese.
  54. Roland Neissinger from Latteville, Canada writes: My belief is that life long learning get's ignored by some University Grads.
    After some 10 years they sit at a 'stale' degree while the new grads come in steepened not only on rethoric but also with work experience.

    At the other side there are enough people which work trough the grassroot level, amass knowledge, keep learning and finally with an awakened thirst for knowledge sometimes bother to make their degree, even if it is for status or socially acceptance only - later.

    Some push a turkey with loads of money through university others who can't afford, raise geniusses, toiling, working, until her/him see the light.

    Life is a great master, it's what you make out of it - what you will be....
  55. Sherlock Holmes from Waterloo, Canada writes: Roland Neissinger from Latteville, Canada writes: My belief is that life long learning get's ignored by some University Grads.

    Learning doesn't pay.........well neither does Arts...dunno why people bother with B.A. at all.
  56. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: Agreed, way too many people with useless degrees and not enough people with trade skills.

    There is going to be a big problem when all of the baby boomer tradespeople retire.
  57. Christopher Kiely from Canada writes: Darren X from Toronto, Canada writes: I'd be a LOT more interested to see a comparison of trade school vs university.

    There are simply too many university grads out there IMHO... many of the people I went to university with were wasting their time, and are now very well educated clerks.

    Well Darren some surveys have shown that the majority of millionaires in the US are tradesmen... Does that tell you something?

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