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Work until you die

ROMA LUCIW

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 11:00 AM EST 24/10/07

New survey finds 18% of boomer men and 12% of boomer women plan to work for themselves indefinitely, even after retirement ...Read the full article

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  1. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: Roma, it all depends what you want to work at. My 85 year old fortune teller read my palm the other day. She said I have a long life-line and that I am going to die at the hands of a jealous lover. I gave her a $5 tip and went right to work.
  2. James O'Keefe from Toronto, Canada writes: I just made the cut for being a Baby Boomer, and am glad that Ontario at least is doing away with mandatory retirement. In my current job I must retire in another 17 years, but my house won't be paid off by then, so I guess I'm gonna have to keep on working, esp. as my original nest egg was depleted after a bout of unemployment.
  3. Gerry Pankhurst from Westport, Canada writes: And why not? I am just a couple of months short of 80 and have never been unemployed up to and including today. I have up-rooted house and home on a fairly regular basis in the process which accounts for for my having been listed in 27 different telephone books in four countries. I have countless happy memories and am building on many more for the future. If and when I give it up will be my decision and mine only. And that's the way it should be. I wish all healthy people the same good fortune.
  4. Frank N. Stein from Canada writes: I owe so much money, the banks will never let me die. They will keep sparking me up until my arms rot off and can no longer swing a wrench.
  5. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: If you own your own business, it must be much easier to continue working beyond retirement age. Me...I can't wait to stop working and travel, sail and go on motorcycle tours. 9 years 358 days to go!
  6. Mac - GLG from Canada writes: When I hit 65 my three kids will be in university (I hope) and 1 might be out. They'll be 22 and 21.
    With my current responsibilities and obligations there can be no retirement so working is the only option.
    I hope to do something on my own by then and maybe the kids will be involved with me/us.

    Until then it will be status quo at the coal mine :-)
  7. Dirk Dunderlinger from Canada writes: If the Alberta government raises royalties, I might be working until I die (an possibly a few years after dieing)
  8. Larry Robinson from White Rock, Canada writes: Bravo to Gerry Pankhurst. You are a very fortunate person.

    I worked at a job-job but spent my time looking for skills I could use to follow my interest and passion until I say good-bye. I took early "retirement" and went into business for myself and have received satisfaction and unexpected increase in income. I am already planning my next career change that will take place ten years before Gerry's present age.

    The perspective and balance of aging is a wonderful tool. Use it.
  9. Bake McBride from Vancouver, Canada writes: It's called - Not having enough hobbies!
  10. Brian Jessup from Woodstock,ON, Canada writes: With regard to the comment from FRANK N. STEIN......... You have LOTS of company out there,LOTS and LOTS!!!
  11. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Gerry Pankhurst from Westport, Canada writes: And why not? I am just a couple of months short of 80 and have never been unemployed up to and including today. I have up-rooted house and home on a fairly regular basis in the process which accounts for for my having been listed in 27 different telephone books in four countries.

    I always knew there was something queer about you! I am also in my eighties (a happily married Canadian citizen for nearly 50 years), and very well travelled and am still interested in my business pursuits, and HAVE NO DEBT, B U T, I do not have to work and that takes the stress out of living, whilst working and enjoying a financially successful family as well. It can be done without greed and with good ethics as well.

    Gee Gerry, your poor wife and family!
  12. Brian L from Canada writes: I love some of the comments above. As a 50 year old I too have no plans to hang it up at age 65 even though my wife and I are financially secure.

    The naked truth is that simple numbers (demographics) demand the boomer generation must work much longer than many of them expect. If all retire as planned (and live to age 90), the resources to feed, clothe and medicate them will be taxed beyond capacity. Supply shortages will lead to inevitable inflation (can you hear it coming today) that will erode their retirement savings. Those who are complacent will be badly disappointed in their quality of life.

    This is not a pessimistic view. I think a happy life is a productive one; most of us don't want to be dependent on others.
  13. Rolly Beethoven from Canada writes: I plan to work indefinitely - not at what I am currently doing as I am really not much interested in it anymore. However at 64 not many headhunters call me now, nor insurance salespersons which is good or bad whatever way you look at it. I think what might be really fun at about age 68 is start going to college again, you don't have too many external pressures from superiors there, money is not really that important and you have somewhere to go during the day. Besides associating with young people may be beneficial. All as long as my health remains ok.
  14. Hugh Draper from Canada writes: Aim to be debt free with restrained wants and try to steer toward something rewarding in your mature years like sex and rock & roll.

    Oh, and when you die leave a final NSF cheque for the undertaker.
  15. OZZY RULES THE WORLD! from Canada writes: Frank N. Stein from Canada writes: I owe so much money, the banks will never let me die. They will keep sparking me up until my arms rot off and can no longer swing a wrench.
    _____________

    HA ha ha:) LOO
    Gen X'ers like myself may never see Social security after the Baby Boomers are finished. The BB are outsourcing all the decent jobs, downsizing everything and telling us their children we are too expensive to hire because we wanted the life they had so they are depressing wages, hiring illegals and forcing us to be poor. Thanks mommy and daddy. (Not my parents literally of course)
  16. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: You people that want to work until you die are nuts. Life to me isn't about working, but rather a necessity to survive - i.e. shelter and food. If I could, I'd retire today (I'm 33). I'm hoping to have my mortgage paid off in 5 yrs and after that it's all gravy. I've even killed the idea of having kids with my long time g/f because of the financial drain. I want to retire by latest 50 and actually start my life and escape from this prison we call capitalism. Each to his own I guess, if you're happy working why not continue.
  17. John Hinkley from Canada writes: When my wife of 40 years passed away in April 2005, I thought I would continue working forever.

    A year later I had a bout with a blood clot in my leg. While sitting on the hospital bed over a weekend and hooked up to the IV with blood thinner dripping into my veins my family came to visit.

    With 3 gorgeous granddaughters bouncing on the hospital bed I decided that I was not immortal and that there were better things to do in life than work.

    I bought a condo in the same neighbourhood, sold the family home (but kept the cottage) and that was that.

    It takes a while to get used to not working but when you look around there are more than enough things to do to keep busy.

    They say that one common thing older people do is over-estimate their future health.

    If you can - enjoy life while you still can.
  18. globefan EH from Canada writes: There is no wrong or right way to retire. What matters about the choices made is that happy enters into the equation.
  19. Hugh Draper from Canada writes: 'Have a mortgage paid off and after that it's all gravy.'

    With increasing property taxes and maintainance.
  20. Brian L from Canada writes: Mr. DI from Toronto, I hope you can do the math on retirement at age 50. Assuming you and your companion/spouse/whatever live to age 90, maybe longer if medical technology continues to astound us, do a quick calculation of how much principal (cash, not your house) you will have to save in order to give you a 40 year annuity permitting the lifestyle you desire.

    And don't forget about inflation. It can be a nasty surprise. And don't plan to rely on the rest of us ie. government handouts.

    Being willfully naive is a bad trait but common in youths.
  21. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: Brian L - not sure why you would think I'm a naive youngin. I work in the capital markets and bring home a very decent wage not to mention my g/fs future pension from teaching. Believe me I've done the math and know the numbers. My point in what I posted was about having the option to retire and how most people chose to continue on, even when it's not required from a financial perspective. I was pointing out how my views in this subject are quite different from some other posters here. I don't really understand how one can chose to work when they don't have to. I can sit here and in 30 secs I can think of a a dozen things I'd rather be doing. I'm not sure when life became all about working. Maybe I'm missing something.
  22. OZZY RULES THE WORLD! from Canada writes: D I from Toronto, Canada writes: You people that want to work until you die are nuts. Life to me isn't about working, but rather a necessity to survive - i.e. shelter and food. If I could, I'd retire today (I'm 33). I'm hoping to have my mortgage paid off in 5 yrs and after that it's all gravy. I've even killed the idea of having kids with my long time g/f because of the financial drain. I want to retire by latest 50 and actually start my life and escape from this prison we call capitalism. Each to his own I guess, if you're happy working why not continue.
    ____________________________________________

    You are thinking JUST like me:)
  23. Larry Robinson from White Rock, Canada writes: Ozzy Rules - many a baby boomer has been downsized out of a job by the global labour market.

    I sell real estate and I have a substantial client list of boomers who have downsized from necessity before "retirement". Getting the boot at age 40 or 50 can be a disaster if one does not see it coming. The reason we had 18 month severance packages was purely guilt: studies showed a person being severed/downsized after age 45 had a limited chance of recovering. Those packages have shrunk in size, if they are even offered.

    My practical advice to any working person is have a plan "B" because there is no workplace security. And make your plan "B" a realistic passion.

    I saw it coming, planned and got out the very day the ax fell. My work friends were in shock for years, some recovered and became entrepeneurs, some live from pension cheque to pension cheque.

    You're lucky Ozzie, you are young and can recover, retool, re-educate and adjust. A fifty year old worker does not see those alternatives.
  24. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: Work until you die and keep the retirement funds well funded. You will never get to use them. If "work until you die" is the new work ethic (or the only one remaining), why do we have to maintain the social services, retirement funds and EI? I am yet to meet a retired person who can live on pension without having to work. I am yet to meet someone who is unemployed who can live on EI money, even for a while or while looking for another job. If work until you die is the new program, I want to keep my income for the rainy day because I will, apparently, never get to enjoy my retirement. Now I have to go back to work.
  25. Yanxu Li from Canada writes: "To live is to function."
    Woun't life without a work a vanity?
  26. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: ozzy rules: when you leave this prison capitalism, where are you going to go? To Chinese or Indian paradises?

    Why wait until you are 50? I am semi-retired today (at an age younger than yours) and will be fully retired in the next 2 years. Then I can spend all of my time with my kids and doing a little bit consulting on the side.

    Here is to free-wheeling capitalism: \_/ (this is a pint of beer).
  27. My eyes are open, Are yours? from Canada writes: Have a look:

    www.fourhourworkweek.com
  28. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: Sam G - for me the paradise is way up north where it still snows in the winter, into a town of 50 people away from all of this.

    I'm bit jealous of your semi-retirement. What is your line of work?
  29. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: DI: I am a part-time trader (currencies and commodities). When Fed was throwing money into the credit market, I was waking up to "Money for Nothing" every day.

    When China revalues its currency soon, I will have to get a bigger amplifier.

    Why work 9 hours a day when I can make 10 times the money in just 2-3 hours per day?
  30. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: D I: I forgot to mention that living "out there" with 50 people is not for me. I like pavement, cars, noise, the metropolis. Those can be enjoyed only if you are virtually a "tourist" (=don't have to plug into the local job market and put up with the Incompetents). Capitalism is a beautiful thing, once you learn how to ride it. If it rides you (=work until you die), it ain't fun at all.

    "Learn to trade" is the best "career" advice I received. I am finally using my Arts and Science degrees to the fullest.
  31. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: Interesting. I'm involved in trading but not an actual trader. I fully agree with you that you can do in 1 hour what most do in 8. Are you taking outright positions and views? Or more of a cleaner who comes in and scoops up the deals when everyone runs for the hills? Although I despise this capitalistic society we live in, I am trying to scoop as much as I can from it to leave it as soon as I can! Any tips you wanna share with me? My whole thing right now is to get rid of my mortgage and I'm debt free. After that I have alot more options than I do now.
  32. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: DI: No, I do not "scoop" as you say. I trade the yen pairs based on fundamentals, news releases and price patterns in the US, UK and Australia. In an average week, I work 10-15 hours and place 5-6 trades. Sometimes I take position trades, but not very often.

    Best thing about trading is that you don't have to have a lot of money to start. Everyone with knowledge, patience and confidence can build up a nice trading account in 1-2 years. Sky is the limit after that.

    Anyone who wants to learn to trade currencies should look up Jimmy Young, Peter Bain and Chris Lori.
  33. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: DI: I was in the same mode two years ago: "get rid of debt". Now I don't really think about debt and mortgage that much. With a stream of income coming through the high-speed internet line, it does not really matter if I have a mortgage. There is no one who can fire me, no one who can downsize me, no one who can tell me what to do and when to do it. In this world, the only way to be truly free and still enjoy amenities of civilization is to become a trader. Resistance is futile :)

    Getting rid of debt is, of course, important. However, acquiring knowledge to make yourself totally independent from vagaries of the Global Economy is even more important. Life is short, we should all drive Porsches at least once.
  34. David Rouleau from Canada writes: I hope I die before I have to retire. I will have a rather generous retirement fund but what is the use of retirement when you have no-one else left to spend it with. All of you Gen-X and Gen-Me's who want us boomers to just go away really should realize that the good life you are living now was only attained by the sweat of OUR brows. Sheesh!! Selfish and spoiled are the only terms I have for you. Cheers, anyway!!
  35. Brett DAmelio from St. John's, Canada writes: Actually - I think a major reason why people work past 65 is that they haven't planned for retirement - and planning for retirement is more than having 80,000/yr to fritter away until you're 90-odd years old.

    With all the small businesses, people do think of working until they die - because it's more difficult to think about handing off their work - training and educating their younger coworkers/employees so that they have the necessary skills to fill their shoes. The boomer generation has been rewarded for building their silo's, creating their internal empires within their corporations to protect their jobs and their turf. This stunts the growth of the following generations - leaving jobs to be outsourced, and a greater focus towards entrepreneurship.

    Business continuity planning has gaps, and in order to get around that - people need to work longer. They're not going to do it now - when they want to work - they'll try and do it when they're tired of working - rush job, and we'll see what happens.
  36. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: Sam - I deal more with interest rate derivatives...I'm not overly versed in foreign currency. But will definately be looking up the books you suggested. I day traded for a few years and made some good money at it, but never thought about it as a serious job. Many thanks my friend for the valuable info. Have a good one buddy.
  37. Mr. CanoeHead from Toronto, Canada writes: I am in my 30's and I count myself in that figure. I plan to continue to work in fields (non-profit) that motivate me and fulfill me until I drop. I don't understand that whole mentality that says, "I'll retire wealthy and pick up golf and sail the seven seas". There is no more effective psychological prevention to illness and early death as to feel productive and motivated. The only modification that I would do is switch to part-time after a certain amount of time. Other than that, I want to make my exit while at work and doing what I enjoy, just like Ken Thompson did, RIP.
  38. David N from Toronto, Canada writes: Different strokes for different folks, but I look forward to taking it easy as soon as I can manage it. I began working (part-time at first) when I was nine years old and it only got heavier, so I think I deserve it. And I don't think I'll have the slightest problem keeping my self productively occupied. Just think of it this way - when you are lying on your death bed, reviewing your life, can you imagine that you are going to say to yourself "I wish I'd worked more"?
  39. M T from Canada writes: David Rouleau said: "All of you Gen-X and Gen-Me's who want us boomers to just go away really should realize that the good life you are living now was only attained by the sweat of OUR brows." Silly me. And I thought it was your parent's generation that that gave us this good life. You know, the ones that lived through a depression and a couple of wars, and yet still manage to build a somewhat egalitarian society, which those of your generation have been dismantling ever so gradually these past 25-30 years.
  40. Vladimir Kolcza from Toronto, Canada writes: Frankly, anyone who chooses to work for a SALARY as a wage slave past the age of 65 DESERVES to work until they die. By age 65, if you haven't figured out how to work for yourself, then you never will and are condemned to being a wage slave. Slavery is slavery, be it for wages or whatever. So, to me, those who support the lifting of mandatory retirement age are people who have not thought things through, or people who simply do not "get" the slavery thing.
  41. OZZY RULES THE WORLD! from Canada writes: David Rouleau from Canada writes: I hope I die before I have to retire. I will have a rather generous retirement fund but what is the use of retirement when you have no-one else left to spend it with. All of you Gen-X and Gen-Me's who want us boomers to just go away really should realize that the good life you are living now was only attained by the sweat of OUR brows. Sheesh!! Selfish and spoiled are the only terms I have for you. Cheers, anyway!!
    ____________

    I do not want people to die, I want them to stop outsourcing, downsizing and generally screwing us over. We only had the "good life" when we were 1 to 18 years old...when we came of age in the 90's we had the economic prosperity door slammed in our faces and it opened to China/Mexico. This is killing the future for the baby boomer's profit today. What are you guys going to leave us when you die in 20 to 25 years? I know...a polluted, fascist police state with no prosperity for nobody but the rich...to hell with the Generations that came after you...typical.
  42. Thumb Sucker from Toronto, Canada writes: "Retirement may conjure up idyllic images of sailing, lounging or golf, but a new survey shows that more than one-fifth of baby boomer entrepreneurs plan to spend their golden years with their nose to the grindstone."

    This is what happens when you conduct such a survey with the PGA tour, the America's cup teams and the Teamsters Union. Man those guys are lazy, sooooo lazy.
  43. Gerry Dunnhaupt from Toronto, Canada writes: The danger for those who retire early is that they don't consider how long they may live after retirement. I know of a 101-year old man in a local nursing home who still enjoys dancing, even participated in a fashion show. It occurred to me that he must have retired 40 years ago, about the year when I started to work. At that time 10,000 was a typical salary for many Canadians. His ANNUAL retirement income will be a fraction of this amount, say 5,000. But that is what people now have to pay PER MONTH in some nursing homes!
  44. Freshand Forwardthinking from Canada writes: I am 57 now. In two careers, I spent 15 years in a highly privileged federal government position with all the security and more of the perks than most. I remember a colleague by whom I could set my watch. He cleared his desk and packed his briefcase at at 3.55 PM. Everday, he called his wife at 3.59PM to say "Honey, can I pick up something on the way home?". I shared his retirement cake and wished him well. Two weeks later, I attended his wake. At age 39, I surprised my clock-watching colleagues and walked away from the security and perks. I opened my own, home-based business because no corporate job could match what I had enjoyed in my early years. Now - 17 years later, I am wealthier, with more RRSP's stashed away than the government pension would have amounted to and no doubt, I am healthier and happier due to the control that I have exercised over my life. The home-based business has thrived and I have delegated what I wish to. As creator of my little proprietorship, I believe that I will always be able to guide and contribute to its ongoing success as long as I live. It has afforded my family a place in the sun but I just have to convince myself that anything longer than two weeks on the beach is actually good for me. My advice to everyone is to take your life into your own hands and enjoy!
  45. Brian L from Canada writes: Mr. DI from Toronto, I get your point that you would rather play than work. Just don't look down on those who gain satisfaction from their work. If I were trading stocks during the day, I might or might not make money but I wouldn't feel I was contributing much to the world.

    However, as to my earlier point, retirement at age 50 is most definitely a dangerous proposition. 40 years is a long time to live off of finite savings....unless of course you get rich from your endeavours....or want somebody else to pay your way. So do the math you say that you can do and confidently or naively say its doable. I guess we won't know whether you or I are right for another 15-20 years. I am betting its me.

    Cheers and good luck.
  46. Bob ... from Canada writes: as long as they eventually die...

    just kidding, i love the boomers so as long as i never have to hear about another rolling stones tour...
  47. Roland Neissinger from Latteville, Canada writes: Some die out of boredom when they hit the 'glorious' retirement years.
    If you are financial well off, or perhaps inherited from rich parents, you could retire as soon as you want....
    Others work for a living....
    others again live to work....
    others live to be 100% (or much more) consumers - sausage principle: What goes into the sausage making machine, goes back out.....
    So don't complain, make your choice...
    Just don't force your opinion onto others.
  48. B H from Toronto, Canada writes: "Slavery is slavery, be it for wages or whatever." I find that to be an odd comment - do you include working for yourself, as the people in this study were? If all work is slavery, doesn't that make most people in most places in all of the history of humankind 'slaves' other than a few wealthy people who could rely on other people's work to keep them alive? Or are you just thinking of most modern jobs where you are an employee of a large company? I think there's a big difference between working at your own direction, on your own projects and passions (whether it's as a hobby, as volunteer work, or in this case as an entrepreneur) and working for someone else in a job you find intrinsicly meaningless. The 65 year retirement age was invented when 65 was pretty old and people weren't expected to live much past it, so I can see the criticism of it - it was never designed as the beginning of a long 'second life'. On the other hand, I do like the idea of people having the freedom to retire with a pension after many years of hard work, if that's what they prefer.
  49. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: Fresh and Forward Thinking - a good story. Problem, is coming up with that 'home-based business' that can provide for the family. I want nothing more than to be able to run my own show. I feel trapped in my job, and it's only because I don't chose my own destiny, it isn't necessarily the job. I know I'm not alone but in this 'system' we've built here in the western world, most of us are trapped. I do enjoy listening to the stories of the one who have escaped and are doing well, like you :o)
  50. Ramesh Fernando from Canada writes: This is a good thing expect for the 25-26% who are working for money. I do feel sorry for them but they are in the minority. The discriminatory laws which existed in Ontario were terrible. It stopped a lot of talented people from contributing. People who are entrepreneurs contribute a lot to the economy including hiring other people. If they do not want to retire, we should support them. How ? By cutting the provincial and federal small business tax rate as closest to zero as possible. I would even say 0% tax rate on the first say $200,000 in profit should be there.This is good news for any future labour shortage. Maybe we should listen to David Foote, and slow down immigration for now until boomers really retire and then crank up immigration as Foote says. And I am one who doesn't love boomers for electing Trudeau and their socialist utopian ideas, but as Winston Churchill (thanks to Wikiquote)said "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and "any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains." or If you are not a socialist by the time you are 25, you have no heart. If you are still a socialist by the time you are 35, you have no head"
  51. Brian L from Canada writes: Just to reinforce an earlier point, just imagine that everybody aged 50 over quits working today. Presumably those people are religiously following the teachings of Adam Smith and contribute to our collective food, clothing and medications through that tiny piece of divided labor they represent today.

    Who continues to produce the goods and services they need? Is the money (read that IOUs) they have accumulated to this point worth as much in those real goods or services as they think it is?

    My earlier point at 12:42 above was that the boomer generation is generally not in a position where it can meet its needs for the rest of its collective life today.

    Therefore, for personal satisfaction or necessity, it will work longer than any generation that has come before it. Darwin's theories also continue to apply.
  52. Vladimir Kolcza from Toronto, Canada writes: Fresh and Forward Thinking:

    I also work for a ;puiblic service in a fairly senior position with perks and whatnot. However, soon after joining the public service, I quickly recognized that public servants projected being only "half alive" because most with actual competencies were bored out of their skulls. Since I had come from the private sector and had retained a small number of former employers as private clients, I simply EXPANDED my private sectopr efforts while maintaining my public service job. Within 5 years, my private sector business was earning me three times my annual public sector salary. I essentially began to out-earn the Deputy Minister of whatever ministry I worked for from the age of 37 onwards. Today, I am 4 years from a $80K/yr retirement pension and nowhere NEAR ready to close up my private shop. I expect to serve as a "consultant" to the public sector after my retirement and earn approximately $400K/yr from that for a limited period of about 5 years.

    The notion of "retirement" is really only valid for those people who wish to stop thinking and/or earning. These two labels comprise the overwhelming majority of people in my experience.
  53. Socrates speaks from Canada writes: I remember the story of a slave who was freed by his master. Apparently he chose to stay with him and do slavery since he had no knowledge of the world outside of slavery.........
  54. emilio D from Canada writes: Lucky if you make it to 80. So the best thing to do is retire at 60 and enjoy the remaining 20. I guarantee you, life is miserable beyond 80 with all aches and pains of being old. You guys should have married a nurse like I did and live happily ever after. See you all in Maui!
  55. Ruth Case from Steeltown, Canada writes: My dad died at 64 after 4 years of retirement. His advice to me was retire at 55....I'll make it 53! Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.

    I have to laugh when I hear "Golden Agers" fearing that they may outlive their money. Keep saving you cheapskates...eventually Microsoft will figure a way to "take it with you" and spend it all on yourselves!
  56. Farm Boy from Big City, Canada writes: David Rouleau from Canada writes: "I hope I die before I have to retire. I will have a rather generous retirement fund but what is the use of retirement when you have no-one else left to spend it with."

    That's very sad David. I don't believe there really is nobody who you could share your retirement with. Make an effort and you'll find someone.
  57. Randal Oulton from Canada writes: Hmm, if 40 or 50% of Canada, whatever the percentage is, works for the State in one form or another, and is able to therefore able to retire at 45, good thing so many people want to keep on working, as the other half of the population is going to have to pay for the other's early retirement -- as well as the salaries of their successors who replaced them, so a double whammy. Oversimplified yes, but I think there's something there.
  58. stand up mimi from Canada writes: The idea of healthy people stopping all productivity and playing golf for a decade or two has always seemed a bit strange to me. Retirement was originally a fairly short period of one's life, a short rest for the old bones before moving on to the great beyond. And by retirement, I mean no longer making a contribution or doing any kind of work. I think I would find that depressing. Even if I'm no longer "working for the Man" I certainly expect to be contributing in some way, possibly with non-profits, as someone else brought up, or in a business or in some other way. Looking after grandchildren is certainly a worthwhile way to spend time, too.

    Maybe the problem is with our definition of work. If "work" means wage slavery, then bring on retirement! On the other hand, if we think of work as our unique contribution to the world, then why should it have a start or end date?
  59. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: Thanks Vladimir, you are a pro at moonlighting and are rich. You are not the norm thus your blatant bragging adds no value.

    Some people just want to relax in a care-free life. Despite your beliefs, it does not mean that someone stops thinking. Plus why are you rolling in all those 400ks anyway? You aren't going to take it to your grave. Some people enjoy working - that is great, no one is stopping you, other people enjoy living life and having free time. If they don't care what you do, why do you care what they do? To insinuate that the latter is some kind of brain-dead segment of the population is insulting.
  60. J Kay from Canada writes: Ramesh: Not to ruin your invocation of Churchill but he never said such a thing. Wikiquote is wrong. From the Churchill Centre (winstonchurchill.org)

    "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain." There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"

    A great many things have been attributed to Churchill over the years in order to lend the words a greater sense of power, but alas, it is not the case.
  61. Gerry Pankhurst from Westport, Canada writes: Wackernagel: Perhaps I should resent your suggestion there is something queer about me but I have read a few of your other contributions and simply consider the source. Your grasp of things generally is often pretty flakey perhaps your being so old at least partially explains it. You imply I have to work. Wrong! I am the mortgage free owner of a comfortable self contained house, on a large lot, with two vehicles and a well trained black labrador retriever, in a beautiful village of 700 residents, located on the Rideau Canal system, surrounded by a great many bountiful lakes on which I spend any chosen idle time in my boat, either cruising or fishing and occasionally helping out a friend by taking up to a dozen of his overflow passengers from a cruising service he provides. I have several hundred thousand Aeroplan miles, accumulated during the original career from which I took mandatory retirement 15 years ago. I will probably pass them on to someone else because I had more that share of air travel over many years. My wife of 38 years doesn't need them because she was a flight attendant for 37 years. When she retired, she took up painting and has already won awards. Her family is in Switzerland and she visits there quite regularly. I used to but that novelty wore down over the years. I pretty well restrict long travel to business and occasionally turn down contracts if I feel there was too much travel attached. I'm in a position to be selective. I should add; I am not a snow bird. I cherish the Canadian four seasons. As to your seeming to pity me and my family; forget it. It is very much misplaced. If there is anyone more content with their being, I would like to meet them. If I can judge you by the various opinion you have contributed perhaps I should pity you but I don't.
  62. James S from Canada writes: A fun thread... however.. most people are wrong!! lol...

    Who it their right mind wants to work... even if that job is heaven on earth... Spend your free time reading a book, taking walks, doing charitable work, sailing, pimping... whatever you want or can afford..... move on and let the next person have a job if you don't need to work...

    So unless its economic necessity... I can't see working ... AT ALL..lol.
  63. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: Brian L - you're quite involved in yourself. Whether I sit at this desk all day or sit in a row boat fishing, what does that have to do with contributing something to world? Who measures that? You? Who says I have to get out of bed everyday of my life and "contribute" something? I don't need lessons from you on how to calculate an annuity or at what age I should retire at. Thanks for the try though. Obviously our way of thinking about what this life is all about is very different. Lets just leave it at that.
  64. Tom Fry from Calgary, Canada writes: OZZY sez:"Gen X'ers like myself may never see Social security after the Baby Boomers are finished. The BB are outsourcing all the decent jobs, downsizing everything and telling us their children we are too expensive to hire because we wanted the life they had so they are depressing wages, hiring illegals and forcing us to be poor. Thanks mommy and daddy. (Not my parents literally of course) " ================================= You've been reading too many American magazines. The US Social Security system is indeed seriously underfunded. However, the Canada Pension Plan is actually properly funded - despite the claims of some sleazy "investment advisors" selling RRSP's - and unlikely to go under. Assuming some dishonest politician doesn't risk the health of the plan by reducing the contribution rates below a safe level, there'll be enough for you. However, as with every other generation, you'll need to supplement that with retirement savings if you want a comfortable retirement. As for complaining that the boomers somehow had it easy, and are starving their children out of good jobs: Ozzy seems to lack any understanding of history. My son finished his program at the local tech school in May, and got a starting offer for more money than his mother's job pays - not too bad for a 20-year-old. He'll do fine, as long as his expectations are reasonable. Not certain about Ozzy :(
  65. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: DI: As you probably know, and I am mentioning this for the sake of others in this forum, trading is not for everyone.

    It has a steep learning curve, requires regular work and discipline. It also requires a certain psychological profile (=controlled risk can lead to great rewards) to be successful. Also, there are no "they" you can blame for anything when things go wrong.
  66. J Kay from Canada writes: D I: Have to agree with you here both from a philosophical perspective regarding work and with regard to whether or not it's feasible and that Brian L really does present a rather arrogant position, in the face of someone telling him what you did. I as well am similarlly qualified and have on numerous occassion played with the numbers to determine what I would require under a variety of circumstances. It is possible despite Brian's 'doubts'.

    On an aside I also really dont understand the whole Protesant work ethic thing that permeates the psyche of many people today; for them work is the raison d'etre to life, which is certainly an odd view to my mind and at least biologically, quite simply incorrect. And those who are most ardent about said view, who push said view with vigour as if they're attempting to save your soul, remind me most of the adage that misery loves company.
  67. elkay elkay from Canada writes: Its nice to know there are so many level headed , common sense people out there. Usually, there is just a lot of ranting and raving on these posts. To D I and the other traders. I am trading also, but I`m not there yet to leave my day job. Maybe in about a year or two. It must be a nice feeling not to worry about the nonsense of working for others. Looking forward to the day when I am completely in control.
  68. prospector from blackfly country from Canada writes: When I retired I never thought for a moment that I would stop working. After all I still had a mortgage and a child in university (she's still there), however I started doing things I liked!!! Right now I have several things on the go some of which insist on paying me.

    Most boomers are so used to working that they won't quit, BUT, it will be on their terms. They will do what they enjoy and our society will be the better for it.
  69. J M from Vancouver, Canada writes: Escaping the capitalist system? Wage slavery? What a bunch of whining kids you are! The fact is all of us -- yes all of us -- live in complete luxury from cradle to grave in Canada. We have the easiest life in human history and all you can do is complain because you have to work at a job you don't like to pay for your extremely pleasant life in Canada.

    Explain to the the average Joe in India, China, South America, Africa, Russia etc., about how your wage slaving life in the Canadian capitalistic system is so soul-destroying. Stop your sniveling you spoiled brats and get on with it.
  70. Nancy Wilson from Canada writes: There's a difference between "working" for someone else,and controlling your own life.
    Personally,I have no desire to continue working for any company.
    I'd much prefer a lazy lifestyle,of baking on a beach,drinking margueritas,and having a game of crib in the evening,while watching the sun set.
    To each his own.
  71. james malone from Canada writes: damn the boomers. hurry up and die so the next generation can work.
  72. A Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: Adam and Eve lived in paradise and everything was provided for them. Then they committed the big sin, were thrown out of paradise, and had to work for their daily bread. Work was clearly intended to be punishment!. So says Genesis
    Whew! Am I glad I have been able to escape this punishment at a relatively early age.
  73. stand up mimi from Canada writes: J M - If you enjoy working for others, that's great. Lots of people don't and are working on ways to better direct their own careers and work life. This doesn't mean they are whining spoiled brats, or that they don't know how good they have it. Years ago my dad was fed up working for someone else and bought a farm instead. As someone who worked hard his whole life, he would hardly qualify as a spoiled brat. He just wanted more control over his work. Should we all meekly accept whatever drudgery we fall into simply because there are starving Africans? That's a poor man's excuse for passivity.
  74. J M from Vancouver, Canada writes: I'm not opposed to people seeking the life they want to lead. Language like 'wage-slavery' and derogatory comments related to 'capitalism' are certainly whining and bratty, considering that three-quarters of the world would give anything to participate. Fact is, the vast majority of people will have to work to age 65 and beyond, and complaining about it all the way seems pretty ridiculous. For heaven's sake if you hate your job, find something you like to do -- you've got at least 45 years to do it!
  75. Nancy Wilson from Canada writes: James Malone.,
    With all the boomers ready to retire,there should be more than enough work for the newcomers.
    You shouldn't have to wait for us to die.
  76. Sceptical Observer from Canada writes: They've spent like there was no tomorrow and saved nothing for their retirement. Brainwashed and fooled with stupid slogans like "freedom 55".
  77. A Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: Sceptical Observer from Canada writes: They've spent like there was no tomorrow and saved nothing for their retirement. Brainwashed and fooled with stupid slogans like "freedom 55".

    "Freedom 55" was a slogan signifying the need to save and invest so one could retire at 55. I made it one year later:Freedom 56. So have some of my Friends. Not all boomers have been stupid and not saved for their retirement, but their will always be those who do not listen in every generation.
  78. Sceptical Observer from Canada writes: A Leading Edge Boomer I hope I did not overgeneralized. Still I believe my comment reflects the sad situation for many babybomers. I think that many people want to retire at 55 and live another 50 years visiting Dominican republic every winter without clear understanding what it takes in term of savings. They bought the stuff and slod their freedom.
  79. Dave Hasler from Edmonton, Canada writes: We have so many more activity options in retirement now - especially after the invention of Viagara. That said and done, it's not really a question of retirement/working as much as it is how we will occupy our time in our later years. Some will have jobs because they need to but I suspect most of the retirees who choose to work will see it as more of a "hobby" or a mild necessity than an absolute need. I am in my mid 40's now and I can forsee the day 15 to 25 years from now when work is simply a choice I will make. I won't have a "rich" retirement and extra income will be welcome but I can also see myself choosing an ever increasing ammount of leisure. I am well aware that the longer I work, the more I will be able to spend on leisure but there comes a point when adding more dollars starts to reduce the quality of life because of the tradeoff between time/money. I can't imagine anyone on their deathbed saying they wished they had worked more. We don't only live to work but rising costs of housing/education, desired lifestyle, and other choices make this an ever increasing necessity. For now, I have a great job and I really like what I do - in my later years I will do what I like.
  80. A Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: Some did and some didn't Sceptical Observer. In the future, some will and some won't. That is just the way people are. I was lucky that, when I was a young man .a mentor told me that when we own too many possessions, the possessions end up owning us. I took that to heart and tried to strike a balance between acquisitions and saving a reasonable amount. By the way, most of the financial institutions exaggerate what we need to retire comfortably on. They do so because they want us to buy more of their financial services. For a contrarian view, google respected Canadian actuary Malcolm Hamilton , who has published a number of articles and learned research papers. He gives a view of what we need to do to prepare for retirement that runs contrary to what than the financial institutions tell us to do.
  81. D I from Toronto, Canada writes: JM from Vancouver - who are you to say what type of life anyone has had? I'm not sure how you presume to know anyone's life you haven't met. If I had a choice yes I would love to retire today. I, maybe unlike you, have more enjoyable things in life to do than work. It's that simple. Number one on my list is to spend a lot more time with my family and friends. To me they come before any job on the face of this planet. Apparently to you, from the tone of your post, it's about making money and more money. Sad for you to have to fill the voids of your life with dollars rather then relationships.
  82. Sceptical Observer from Canada writes: Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: Some did and some didn't Sceptical Observer. In the future, some will and some won't. That is just the way people are. I was lucky that, when I was a young man .a mentor told me that when we own too many possessions, the possessions end up owning us.
    >>>Amen.
    And thanks for the name.
  83. J Kay from Canada writes: JM: Could you please provied some evidence for your statement that people today have it better than any other generation at any other time in history? I for one would love to see the evidence and upon what basis you make said claims. It is in fact almost certainly true that we work substantially harder today, than many of our ancestors did, be they peasant serfs or hunter-gatherers. Many analysis of the lifestyles of these people show that they spent significantly more time in leisure and religious pursuits than we do today.


    While it is certainly true that we have many luxuries and coveniences today that they never had, and certainly some they would have liked, it is not as if it hasn't come with a cost. There are people who live in affluent countries who 'reject' the acquisition of wealth merely for the sake of it, and who by at least some measures have happier, healthier lives. If you will respond, as I suspect you will, that we have modern medicine, sanitation, etc. I will agree, and I don't dispute that there are some modern things which are objectively beneficial, there are a great many others which we could easily be without and I suspect our lives would be no poorer for them.


    But your comment belies a value judgement you have placed on material wealth, as an end in and of itself. There are peoples on this planet who are/were quite happy living hunter gatherer lifestyles, some even in defiance of the modern world, who were/are being brought into the modern world kicking and screaming as their traditional ways of life are being rendered untenable by modern 'capitalist' expantion. I've talked to a number of people who were profoundly affected by visiting places like Kerala in India, and noting that most of the people they met were quite happy, despite not having much. Happiness does not equal material wealth.


    The problem as some see it is that our modern world forces one into a certain lifestyle; consumption.
  84. OZZY RULES THE WORLD! from Canada writes: Tom Fry from Calgary, Canada writes: My son finished his program at the local tech school in May, and got a starting offer for more money than his mother's job pays - not too bad for a 20-year-old. He'll do fine, as long as his expectations are reasonable. Not certain about Ozzy :( _____________________________ Good for him, he must have a great marketable skill. I have tried to get those skills for years just to find the education system...at least the private ones are horrible. When I finished college I seen the possible wages you would get when you graduate cut in half because of outsourcing so they do not need you as badly. Now I am 30 and stuck in a call center because that pays better than the thing I worked for in school. Now I must find something else but I am not willing to go into massive debt again. I just got the "education" that I already had payed off with my life insurance money from when I had cancer. Its almost funny that cancer saved me (in a way) from the mountain that was my school debt but I still owe my parents 4000 so I am not completely out of the woods yet. (at least no interest right) So what do I do? Hmmmm. Well education is worthless(Most of the time)...so I guess I just have to save my pennies, not expect to have a family and maybe when I am old I might not starve, of course inflation will take care of that. You can save all you want but you have to increase the amount you save every year at least double the inflation rate otherwise you will never keep up. The other option is that you can play "the game", which is handing you money through the stock market to rich people hoping they won't lose it. Its an option I do not like and shouldn't have to put up with, but as long as we continue on a debt based currency we will always be poor.
  85. exMaritime Torontonian from Toronto, Canada writes: Well, each to his/her own. Being 62 and retired for two years now, I certainly have no desire to return to the world of work. I never never earned more thatn $72,000 per year in my entire working life but have consistently saved and invested since my early 20's and am now financially comfortable. I have absolutely no problem being occupied. I am an ardent fan of theatre, opera, ballet, and classical music and Toronto offers an abundance of all of these so I can't possibly do it all. Add to that an great interest in reading and travel and my life is full to overflowing!