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Green hats and other ways to blow a deal in China

MARCUS GEE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 2:34 AM EST 27/08/07

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  1. slapdash dapoint from Canada writes: let's now hear of the reciprocal school in china...
  2. David Srigley from TO, Canada writes: So when Canadians goto China, we must assimulate to their culture, but when the Chinese come here, we celebrate the diversity they bring. A lovely one-way street this multiculturalism thingy is!
  3. vic w from Canada writes: Ms Kearns must be lining her pockets. The Chinese aren't dumb, they know that foreigners are just that, foreigners. How could they be expected to know all of the customs and vagaries of China. One thing this article does a good job of is to emphasize the foreign nature of China, when what the world really needs is more understanding of the similarities between cultures. For instance, pertinent to the discussion at hand. What they want to do is make money buy a car, and a house. What most of us want to do is make money buy a car, and a house. This article is one sided and should challenge the actual business efficacy of the lessons. I'm not talking about the mandarin lessons. Those are actually practical. Finally why is it that everytime something remotely mentioning China comes up, bigots appear? You'd almost think that someone, or some political party has an agenda.
  4. Christopher LaHaise from Ottawa, Canada writes: The fact is, China has one of the oldest cultures in the world, and with it came an entire series of cultural rituals and forms of etiquette. I've just been studying it for a project of mine, and I can see just how deep their cultural roots are.

    North America, in comparison, has very shallow roots. We don't have four thousand years of culture to give weight to our society. Think about it - what customs does Canada and the United States have? And then ask yourself this - how much of these customs come from Europe? The Europeans have a number of ways they do things differently from us, and as a 'younger nation', it is expected that we would learn how things are done there, or how to interact in a business relationship.

    This isn't only about China. Consider doing business in India. Germany. Russia. Italy. Then consider what happens if someone from that country comes here to do business. Do you really want to insult them? No. Will their customs and etiquette seem different and awkward? Yes. If you really want to get your business agreements done, however, you'll deal with them on their terms.

    No matter how old our nations get, we'll always be the 'new kids'.
  5. Teacher David from China writes: A lot of what Kearns says is true, especially if you are trying to SELL the Chinese something. However, if they are attempting to sell you something then expect a lot more looseness in the culture. Nowadays most of the younger and better educated (under 40s) know the difference. The older ones still hang to the culture, especially the power thing. So knowing your audience sure helps.

    And those on a negative bent in these threads, yes, there are some crooked Chinese, just as there are crooked Canadians, Americans, etc. Additionally, many of them just don't know that they don't know. Until the education levels increase and the communist way of thinking is kicked out of this country, expect more issues to arise. However, most countries outside are aware so by maintaining a vigilence when buying in China, most organizations, and ultimately the consumer, can benefit from Chinese goods. The same can be said for foreign products entering China. Currently the Chinese gov't is working hard to fix things. Especially with the Olympics coming. Hopefully they can put together the enforcement processes as that is where they continue to lack ability.
  6. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: The ability to operate successfully in foreign cultures indeed requires respect and a bit of panache as well.

    Even I have problems in Toronto board meetings when I arrive there with jet-lag, and yet I was born there.

    Shanghai, NYC, London, and Paris also present similar cultural problems.

    I try to always carry a bottle of water to prevent de-hydration, and apologize profusely at any sign of a problem wherever I am.

    A bit of respect and politeness goes along way in any culture, and watch out for the booze as well. Best Regards.
  7. Justin Ma from Scarborough, writes: I always find it funny to read about comments on etiquette and how it is always over-emphasized. As one poster pointed out, I find it more productive to look for similarities than differences among cultures. I question the importance of the etiquette suggested in this article in at least two respects. 1) it's common to homogenize China (or any nation for that matter) into a single culture; think about the US (which is smaller), there's a contrast between the N/S, E/W, city/country/small town. The customs in each province vary greatly, as they do in any nation. 2) 'Western' dinner etiquette exists, yet how many people actually know all the traditional details? How many Chinese people actually know all the details of 'Chinese' dinner etiquette? And even if they do, not everybody's so pretentious. White wedding dresses provide an excellent example; once never worn except at funerals, they're now standard just like 'western' weddings. People are people, even if there's 10 000 miles in between us.
  8. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: The Report on Business is what the G&M is all about, as far as I am concerned.

    Some of the humour that goes on surpasses Monty Python, or NY Live (Belushis, Old Firehall in Toronto?).

    A good laugh is just that, and it is amazing that some of our best comedians are now showing up on the G&M Report on Business.

    Please keep up the good work. Best Regards.
  9. recalcitrant civilian from Canada writes: Who on earth would anyone offer a green hat as a gift? Here's a more practical tip: when toasting someone, show them respect by positioning the tip of your glass lower than the tip of theirs. Very few people notice this practice until it's pointed out to them -- but it is pervasive and everyone observes it.

    The language is really the key to doing well though. Fortunately there are many more resources out there than there used to be and teaching practices are improving as well. The best IMHO are the podcasts at www.chinesepod.com, although there are a flurry of similar companies these days.
  10. Sal Navarro from Toronto, Canada writes: This is all very nice, but I suspect that in China, like the rest of the world, the amount of cultural integration and understanding required to do business is directly proportional to the amount of zeros in the dollars section of whatever deal one is trying to make.

    More zeros, less culture.
  11. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: My brother did all that he could to send aid to Peru to help the recent earthquake here, and the huge out-pouring of thousands of tonnes of aid from countries as far away as Canada will never be forgotten either.

    It is truly incredible to watch a steady stream of C-130 Hercules transports taking off for Pisco since they have to fly over my roof to get there, and we are talking of thousands of flights over the past week or so.

    It rarely makes me proud to be a Canadian, but we did one hell of a fine job this time around. Do we have the C-130s and the ability to respond to similar emergencies in Canada? I doubt it. Best Regards.
  12. Mister Fartleberry from Toronto, Canada writes: The first 4 comments are right on the mark. Someday they will have no more use for us and our resources and then watch out.
  13. Etienne Forest from Japan writes: Christopher LaHaise: I hear the same thing said about Japan. And yet Japan was a land of tribes and huts before 400 AD. At that time Rome was the largest city in the World: aqueducs, libraries, 50,000 km of paved roads, arenas, hippodromes, 1350 fountains, the largest bridges in the world, etc... We Canadians have forgotten that, although we are a young state, our culture and certainly that of the Americans, is based on a long tradition of law and order. The civil code of Quebec, for example, is a direct descendant of the Digest of Justinian which itself was a compendium of 1000 years of Roman laws. British common laws are also a mixture of old tribal and Roman precepts. Of course, as pointed out indirectly by David Srigley, the multicultural state does its best to denigrate our roots, that is to say the influence of England and France, and therefore, that of Greece and Rome. My father was forced to learn Latin and Greek. Now zilch. Just like Mao's communists who attacked ancient Chinese culture, we attacked our own. The big difference is that now China (and certainly Taiwan) is rediscovering its root while ours are buried under the multicultural ideology. And because we are not a European state (racially that is), the chance that we rediscover our roots are close to nil. The Chinese have no multicultural ideology to burden them and prevent them to rediscover the past that the commies tried to erase. The Chinese will succeed as certainly as we will fail.
  14. CPT America from United States writes: 'slapdash dapoint from Canada writes: let's now hear of the reciprocal school in china...' Finally someone that says it like it is!
  15. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: ... and then there's Feng Shui (ancient Chinese practice of placement and arrangement of space to achieve harmony with the environment). I had a Thai Chinese project manager who wanted me to sit differently in a project room as my back faced the door (symbolizing someone can walk into the room and stab me in the back).

    In SE Asia, I found these beliefs really vary from one person to another. One no-brainer rule ...just try to respect practises and beliefs of other people!

    Chinese expect most foreigners to be not so familiar with Chinese customs. Probably more important, just relax, be yourself and generally act in the same respectful way you would to others in Canada. They'll probably get the drift. Also, what's important is how to learn about the local envrionment and how to respond in an acceptable manner to real or perceived annoyances.

    For example, sometimes I found junior service staff here (cashiers, security guards, etc) have a tendency to follow rules to an extreme. I've seen some causcasians really blow up when confronted with this. In this scenario, it's just better to just be cool, relax and talk it out or just accept it. Verbal outbursts with profanity don't work too well here ...
  16. J S from Montreal, Canada writes: Wow, this comment section was fun to read. I hope the people posting here aren't the ones representing their respective companies in negotiations in China. Of course these things aren't mandatory, but as any good salesman would say, any advantage will help. Nowhere in this story did it say that, while travelling, we North Americans need to practise etiquette (and thank god for that). What it did say is that these tips will go along way to raising you, and your company, above the horde of companies racing to do business in China. I for one thank Ms Kearnes as I have a pending business trip to China and will be taking her advice to heart. For all the people who failed to see the point (some small, practical advice for foreign businesspeople in China) and instead took it as a attack on their personal political view, you need to read this article again. The article didn't say that we need to assimilate into their culture, just know a bit about it before we go over there. And if anyone assumes that visiting Asians haven't learned something about ours before coming to Canada, will be going home without the deal
  17. john doe from toronto, Canada writes: slapdash dapoint writes: let's now hear of the reciprocal school in china...

    Yes, Slapdash, I wonder where that one English school in China is... Hmmm... there must be one English school somewhere. (Naaah, nobody in China sends their kids to learn English from an early age. There are no English Schools in China. None at all.)

    Nope, it's always multicultural Canada where everyone is so well-versed in foreign customs. That's why, when Canadians go to China on business, all negotiations are purely in Chinese, never in English.

    Yeah, right.
  18. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: I just can't wait for the pirated English version of the instructional CD to become available.
  19. K N from Canada writes: When I saw the headline about Green Hats being a 'no-no' in China, I thought that it meant you should never talk about environmental protection! That would also be a non-starter, but destroying the environment (Three Gorges Dam -- to which Canada contributed), that is another story.
  20. Voice of Reason from Canada writes: Christopher LaHaise writes 'The fact is, China has one of the oldest cultures in the world...'

    Close. In fact, it is the oldest continuous culture. The average Chinese student today can read, without too much difficulty, books that were written as much as 3,500 years ago. And of course, has access to the truly vast body of literature accumulated during all that time.

    We in the English world, of course, can't read anything in our language which is much more than 500 years old.

    Chinese civilization shows absolutely no signs of ever disappearing (like the Egyptians, Carthaginians, or Romans.) In fact, even today, there is an unprecedented degree of unification among all Chinese peoples, and the stage is set for massive advancement. No doubt at some point, possibly even within a generation or two, China will surpass the United States as the font of the dominant culture and technology.

    Don't you remeber the 70s when the big joke was 'hey, that crap is made in Japan'? The Chinese have all the time in the world. I expect they will make use of it.
  21. slapdash dapoint from Canada writes: john doe from toronto - you missed the point twice in one outting, fantastic.

    the article was about a school teaching chinese customs and cultural variances. not a bad idea, quite handy and interesting i'd imagine.

    my comment was directed at that. nothing to do with language.

    and this has nothing to do specifically with chinese, any culture/nationallity could be substituted.
  22. A Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm just wondering, does anyone know what the situation is like for women attempting to do business in China?
  23. Voice of Reason from Canada writes:
    A Smith asks 'does anyone know what the situation is like for women attempting to do business in China?'

    Chinese culture is far less 'male dominated' than, say, Japanese culture (don't even think about the Arab world).

    There are two reasons for this. First, a primary principle of Chinese communist policy was sexual equality. Second, the period of Chinese histroy that most Chinese regard as the height of its civilization - the Tang dynasty (about 618 - 907 AD) was also strictly egalitarian among the sexes.

    A woman doing business in China encounters little or not difficulty flowing only from hex sex.
  24. M Horon from Calgary, Canada writes: China sells arms to Iran, al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Meanwhile we send our soldiers there to receive their bullets. The Canadian Gov through CIDA hands them 50 million a year in grants. If they want to do business with Canadians it should be on our terms, not theirs.
  25. R Wolovet from United States writes: I read recently that students must pass an English test as part of the requirement to enter college. It is a common statement by executives doing business in China that there is a lot of tea that must go down before one does any business there. I don't think tea was a euphemism for booze; it just shows how much patience one must have in trying to develop business relationships in China.

    I am concerned about China's inability? unwillingness? to stop the theft of intellectual property, to stop counterfeiting, and their quality control, given the serious lapses with pet food, lead paint, tires, etc. While culture is important in getting and doing business, I believe that integrity is critical to having confidence in our business partners.

    Execution and suicide are not solutions; they are reminders that China continues to be a Communist dictatorship with different morality than our own.
  26. Ice Rider from Edmonton, Canada writes: So what's the etiquette in them sending us toys laced with lead, fruit juices loaded with pesticides? How do we deal with their pirating our technology? What's the proper way to deal with their gulags and concentration camps? Perhaps the best way to deal with a rogue nation with no regard for international standards is not do business with them until they stop trying to kill us. Green hats should be the last of their worries.
  27. vic w from Canada writes: hey look, the rhetoric riders are here, everybody jump on the China-bashing train!
  28. Ice Rider from Edmonton, Canada writes: So Vic W, what's your point? Better yet, what's your answer to the questions posed above? At what point does your rush to profit from doing business with China override their refusal to abide by the rules and conventions of civil society and common decency? Come on, Vic. Let's have an answer from you if you're so sure they're right and the "rhetoric riders" are wrong.
  29. harry carnie from Northern,B.C., Canada writes: When in a foreign county it is only common courtesy to observe their etiquette.
    The business people in China are within their rights to expect this.

    The business people from the West in their greedy rush to make money ,are very willing to kiss A$$ in anyway they can, to make a deal.Why should this be a problem?

    The problems with poor quality goods, and contaminated products ,from China is the result of Westerners focused on PROFIT.

    It is NOT China`s fault if we (Western companies)are incapable of assuring a quality control...we are "big boys"...do we need some one to "hold our hand"?...B.S.!
  30. David Smith from Canada writes: Remarkably similar, in some aspects, to dealing with the Japanese who were strongly influenced by China over the centuries. My experience in Japan further suggests that it is extremely difficult to get your point across in any negotiation as it is usually their way or the highway. And like the Chinese, they never say no, but have various ways of expressing the negative which one has to determine. My personal favourite is the "teeth-sucking" sound.... you're dead and buried...just go home!

    Some poster above...why bother scrolling... threw a bit of loonie right wing ideology into play here by suggesting that China sells arms to Iran, Al Qaeda and the Taliban. They likely do have such arrangements with Iran and they are a problem re the Sudanese. (They need the oil) There is absolutley no proof, nor have I ever seen reference, to China selling arms to terrorists.
  31. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodvile, Canada writes: This great article should teach anyone travelling and doing business abroad how to respect other cultures and treat everyone with some dignity. Having lived my young life in South America because my father did business there, I found the British terribly overbearing and could not believe how different they were when I eventually went to live in the U.K. After the World War II, I found in France that the people perferred the GERMANS to the Americans who were purportedly their rescuers! Go figure! After 48 years in Canada I find that Canadians have no idea how to behave when they go to foreign lands to do business and, like the Americans, they go with an inflated opinion of themselves and a terrible attitude. Believe me, you are not the 'cats whiskers'! Other cultures and peoples have wonderful lives and great characteristics from which you can learn. Try discussing this with the lawyers who travel for their conventions to Asia and let them tell you of the culture shock they receive when they return to the U.S. or Canada.
  32. Ernest T Bass from United States writes: I'm guessing that if you give them a lot of 'greenbacks' that they will overlook the green hat insult. :)
  33. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: So this teacher/consultant is the friend of the editor? Yet another G&M article drumming up business for some random company.

    It's common sense to understand customs of where you are going, and some points are very valid - such as the pace of business. However, some of the other things mentioned are minor faux pas; I assure you no Chinese person is going to get pissed if you give them a Rolex. Go to wikipedia and look up Canadian customs; would you be outraged or refuse to do business with someone if they violated most of the things there? C'mon.

    If anything they should first be teaching etiquette for people in Canada about Canada. How many people know the difference between 'open' and 'closed' utensil positioning during a meal and how to place your cup to signify what you want to drink afterwards?
  34. The Electorate are hopelessly Brain Dead from Canada writes: vic w from Canada writes: hey look, the rhetoric riders are here, everybody jump on the China-bashing train!

    ==========================================

    Oh look, the Communist Party members are here! Everybody, tow the party line like good little comrades!
  35. L W from United States writes: Whole country is corrupt. Just be careful your "partner" doesn't bribe some cops and you find yourself in prison for no reason.
  36. The Electorate are hopelessly Brain Dead from Canada writes: Oh and Comrade Vic,
    I'll make it my business to bash the communist party of china whenever I can until the evil rotten corrupt old monsters that run that massive gulag are removed.

    FREE TIBET!
  37. M Horon from Calgary, Canada writes: David Smith, you should update yourself. The Chinese arms sale link to the Taliban and al-kaeda are main stream news in western canada.

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/6/18/105602.shtml
  38. vic w from Canada writes: wow, Horon, how far will those nutty neocons go?
  39. vic w from Canada writes: Oh look the juvenile name-callers are here! You need a time machine to go back to the 60's, I think you belong there.
  40. vic w from Canada writes: The Electorate: Evil Corrupt Old Monsters with Gulags eh? Wow, sounds like the USA with all of their nondescript CIA internment camps. Sounds like the Conservatives here. Tibet has nothing to do with the issue. By screaming 'Free Tibet', you reveal your ideological lines and brand yourself. China if anything has done a great deal to promote economic development in what used to be a feudal serfdom. Case in point, the rail line in.
  41. Wanderingwilly Longtail from Canada writes: So.....you should arrive bearing gifts that originate in Canada like Maple Sirup or Muckluck's and be prepared to receive gifts like a "Lead Paint Li Peng bust" or a nice "formaldehyde fangjin" hat.
  42. Porcupine Bristles from Canada writes: Seems to me that a good host would either accept a foreign person's cultural slights as unintentional and take no offense or to respectfully instruct them in their ways and traditions.
  43. OK from Ontario from Toronto, Canada writes: I like VOICE OF REASON's post - about how China has the oldest continous culture, and will soon be the dominant culture and technology powerhouse of the world soon. How does one get to be the dominant culture? Have more people than anyone else or else invade and impose your culture on them? And I sincerely doubt that China will ever become the technology powerhouse of the world, unless you mean by pirating and reverse engineering everything the West invents, for two reasons. 1/ the "unchanging" culture. The west changes itself to suit the times. That's why following the disolution of the Roman Empire that although the standard of living fell through the floor we continued to advance technologically - war and strife is the mother of necesity which in turn is the mother of invention. The Chinese had gunpowder for over 2 thousand years, and in all that time the only use they could figure out for it was fireworks! The second reason is that they adopted that horrible western invention called Communism (Marx was a Prussian). Although the Chinese are jumping on the Capitalist bandwagon, Communism stifles individual thought, which is imperative in order to invent anything. China is the worlds leader in copyright infringement and state sponsored piracy. Sooner or later the West will impose its will to stop this.
  44. name user from Canada writes: M Horon from Calgary, Canada writes: China sells arms to Iran, al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Meanwhile we send our soldiers there to receive their bullets. The Canadian Gov through CIDA hands them 50 million a year in grants. If they want to do business with Canadians it should be on our terms, not theirs.

    You are a good dreamer. How many doses of drug have you taken last night?

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